Sunday, January 29, 2012

Hong Kong - Mainland War of Words

Recently (some) Hongkongers have complained that (some) Mainlanders behave poorly in public transport, occupy hospital facilities and other valuable resources unfairly, drive up housing prices, etc.  (Some) Mainlanders, on the other hand, complained that (some) Hongkongers cannot speak Putonghua properly, are unfriendly to Mainlanders, require tough laws to keep them in line, do not appreciate the business that Mainlanders bring to Hong Kong, etc.

Indeed, Hong Kong has developed a culture quite distinct from those of the Mainland, Taiwan or other Chinese communities.  And it is often a source of mis-understanding or even conflict.  However, the protagonists in this cases are largely “barking up the wrong trees”. (Just a convenient idiom - no offense intended.)

Hongkongers and Mainlanders are really not that much different in nature.  Put into the others’ shoes, they would probably behave in exactly the same manner.  It is the political systems and the corresponding governments that are responsible for the source of much of the conflict.


It is the Hong Kong government that have failed to curtail unlawful behaviour of greedy and arrogant businesses such as D&G.  It is the Hong Kong government that failed to sort out who should be able to benefit from the public services, such as hospital beds, financed by Hong Kong tax payers.  It is the Hong Kong government that use fear-mongering to prevent a rational discussion of a sensible immigration policy.  It is the Hong Kong government who allow the big real estate developers to manipulate the market, restrict the supply, and to sell flats using misleading information, driving up prices.

On the other hand, it is the Mainland’s political system that allows people like 孔慶東 to prosper from spewing hatred and extremist views.  It is the Mainland’s economic system that allows low-quality, fakes and poisonous products to flood the market - which drive the buyers to seek safer, high quality products in Hong Kong.  It is also the Mainland political system that allows officials to amass fortunes through corruption - which drove them to launder the ill-gotten wealth in the casinos in Macau, and the real estate markets in Hong Kong.  It is also the Mainland government that bastardize the Chinese script into unrecognizable simplified characters - ostensibly for the sake of raising the level of literacy.  Now, both Hong Kong and Taiwan, which keep using the traditional characters, have much higher literacy rates than in the Mainland - it turned out that the traditional characters is not really the obstacle.  The cost of that policy, however, is that generations of Mainlanders cannot read the original scripts in the enormous treasure of Chinese culture. 

So, to whom should our mutual complaints be directed?



43 comments:

mainlander said...

hong kong has no hesitation in embracing english with humility but when it comes to mandarin and simplified chinese characters, hongkong wastes no time in pronouncing cantonese pride and anti-mainland sentiment.

hongkongers need some re-education about "cantonese pride".

mandarin is a far more efficient and user-friendly tool for chinese communication than cantonese. the incompatibility between the daily spoken cantonese and the formal written chinese slows down ppl's thought process, discounts idea output and halts back hk's development. hk and singapore has often been put together for comparison in the last couple decades. hk students in general fare worse in written communication(both chinese and english) than singaporeans. i believe the cause lies in the different choice of teaching medium rather than any significant disparity in gene pool quality (as by the fact that hk chinese and singaporean chinese mostly look alike).

singapore’s founder lee kwong yew is known for his anti-communism belief but his administration decided to adopt mandarin as the official language despite native mandarin speakers probably only made up a very small percentage of the chinese population in singapore(the majority should be hokkien speakers) and at the time singapore was founded, the chinese communist government was in international isolation from the west.

the british are known for their cultural insight. if they had better faith in the cantonese culture, they would NOT have gone all that long way up to northern china (shandong) to recruit policemen early last century. these policemen were then put to station in the better-off neighbourhood in hk where the expatriates congregated. the next hk CEO CY Leung’s father was one of those policemen. cantonese was made the official language in hk in early 1970s, shortly after the red riots in late 60s. one clever and crooked agenda behind the choice of cantonese over mandarin was to curb hk's connection to the red china.

but to put it bluntly, cantonese is in fact just like the ebonics of the chinese language.

mainlander said...

ebonics is the dialect or vernacular form of American English spoken by a large proportion of African Americans. it developed from contacts between African langauges and nonstandard varieties of colonial English spoken by white americans in the southern states(the cotton plantation states where the african slaves worked). ebonics is used in the home or for day-to-day communication rather than for formal occasions. It typically diverges most from standard American English when spoken by people with low levels of education.

cantonese is a dialect of chinese spoken by a large proportion of ppl living in the southern most area(guangdong and guangxi) of china. it is developed from contacts between southern indigenous languages (such as vietnamese, zhuang, tai,etc) and nonstandard colloquial chineses spoken by migrant chinese(such as soldiers and prisoners) from central china 2000yrs ago when the cantonese area was first included in china's map. its accent and spoken form is more influenced by the indigenous languages as the chinese migrants married the southern indigenous women and their children’s speech is more influenced by their mother’s tongue than father’s (which is why cantonese accent actually sounds more similar to vietnamese and thai than other chinese dialects). they adopt the written form of standard chinese as none of the indigenous languages had developed a written form. as a result the spoken form and the written form have never been compatible. vietnamese used to adopt chinese characters for writing before the french came.

the warm weather in the south and the segregation of the cantonese-speaking area from the rest of china by mountains slow down the evolution of the language (as well as the ppl's brain and look there), making cantonese one of the least evolved regional dialects of the chinese language. less evolved means the language is less well regulated and less well developed and its pronouciation less pleasant to ears, which is why cantonese sounds harsh to many foreign ears. it has always been the least respected dialect in china and its accent is often mocked meanspiritedly. the connotations tagged on cantonese have hardly ever been positive. for example, the cantonese language and its speakers are often viewed as being less civilized by other chinese.

despite hong kong’s success has little to do with the cantonese language or its culture, the glory might have given a bit twist of fate for cantonese but its destined to be only delusional and short-lived unless the cantonese ppl can upgrade their gene pool to become aesthetically appealing enough to project cultural influences to the other chinese. it has never happened in the last 2000 years though.

mainlander said...

the cultural centres in china has always been along the yellow river(xi'an, luoyang,kaifeng, beijing, ji'nan) and the yangzi(or changjiang) river(hanzhou, nanjing, shanghai). pearl river delta has always been the recieving end of cultural influence from the north through out history. in the last 1000yrs, half of the time china was ruled by horseback nomads from the north(mongol 200yrs, manchu 300yrs), whereas the southern tribes were never considered as any serious threat by central china. many southerners were even driven off their homeland to further south.

if one wonders why cantonese is widely spoken among overseas chinese communities, some background check on the history of chinese emigration should help. a couple hundred yrs back, chinese were still non-migratory ppl and would not seek fortunes away from homeland unless they were driven desperate. most of the early chinese emigrants to the west represented the lowest level of human resources in china.

"Waves of Chinese emigration (also known as the "Chinese Diaspora") have happened throughout its history. The mass emigration known as the "diaspora" that occurred from the 19th century to 1949 was mainly caused by wars and starvation in mainland China, as well as the problems resulting from political corruption. Most immigrants were illiterate, poorly educated peasants and manual labourers, historically called coolies (Chinese: 苦力, translated: Hard Labour), who emigrated for work to countries such as the Americas, Australia, South Africa, Southeast Asia, Malaya and other places."

"According to Lynn Pan's book "Sons of the Yellow Emperor", the Chinese coolie emigration began after slavery had been abolished throughout the British possessions. Facing a desperate shortage of manpower, European merchants were looking to replace African slaves with indentured labourers from China and India."

"In the 19th century, the age of colonialism was at its height and the great Chinese Diaspora began. Many colonies lacked a large pool of laborers. around the same time there was a wide spread of poverty and ruin in the southern china caused by the taiping rebellion(rebellion usually happens when life is hard). and since guangzhou was the only open port under the policy of isolation in the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911), guangdong became the major port of exit for labourers to southeast asia and west. as a result, many overseas chinese communities have their origins in guangdong.


an understanding of the chinese emigration history would help one understand the following (quoted):

" I think Cantonese is one of the harshest languages around, unlike, say, Mandarin or other East Asian languages. Cantonese is simply very cacophonous and displeasing to the ear.
As someone who speaks both Cantonese & English fluently (but not Mandarin), I find these two languages are not entirely compatible. I've heard of many anecdoctal reports of how people from HK who speak Cantonese who cannot adjust to NOrth American culture because of this linguistic barrier, as opposed to someone who speaks Mandarin who nonethless could acculturate relatively easier in spite of a greater cultural gulf between mainland China and NOrth America."

mainlander said...

mandarin doesnt attain its status purely out of the government’s effort. its being the official language in mainland china, taiwan and singapore is an evolutionary choice becoz its a more efficient communicative tool. it has actually been the official language in china long before the qing dynasty. its a mistaken perception that it origins from the manchurian language despite it was indeed influenced by the manchu during their 300yr rule over china (~1600-1900~). the manchu adopted chinese language rather than to promote manchurian language which was based on horseback migratory experiences and did not have enough vocabs nor was as well developed as chinese for city dwelling life.


the primary function of a language is for communication rather than being a mental challenge(difficult to learn is actually a backward sign. the less well developed cantonese is more difficult than mandarin for picking up). the great apes howl to signal food and danger rather than to show off their capability in making noises. as a language evolves, its pronounciation becomes more polished and easier to make and thus sounds smoother and more pleasant to ears. beijing mandarin is often percieved as the most pleasant to ears becoz beijing has been a capital city for ~1000yrs and a capital city is where the elites and socialites congregate and the pressure of social refinement is greater.(btw, cultural centres in china have always mainly on the north side)

cantonese is more expressive for strong emotions such as frustration and anger (eg cantonese often being percieved as more graphic and vulgar for insult — a backward sign though if we aspire to be more civilized and more polished) but its not as efficient as mandarin for communicating ideas and concepts. it is less well developed and less well regulated (overall = less evolved) as a result of warm weather in the south and segregation from the rest of china by mountains. warm weather and segregation slow down evolution in ppl’s brain(less sophisticated less wise) and look ( shorter, darker and less refine) and this is why the cantonese clan has often been viewed as less civilized and less appealing to other chinese throughout history and the cantonese culture has hardly ever been well regarded.


hk’s success has little to do with the cantonese language. hk benefited a lot from the political misfortune and ideology failure in the mainland in the last century. its economic take off happened in 1960s after the influx of immigrants from china in the 1940-50s(war and power change). most of the affluent immigrants were NOT of cantonese origin. they brought along with them capital, connections and business and techno know-how. the tension between mainland and taiwan and the mainland’s close-door policy helped business in hk boom like nothing before. business just poured in uninvited. it was easy money. hk hardly needed to compete. a very different picture now. the only advantage left for hk is its international exposure and the rule of law instilled by the british. in terms of human resources, the best brains of chinese are still in the changjiang river delta (the shanghai area) and the yellow river delta (from beijing to shandong area). pearl river delta only started to project influence on the chinese course of civilization after the british took hk and the influence is based on western culture rather than anything of cantonese origin.

all should have said much about the worth of cantonese pride.

StephenC said...

Cantonese is my native tongue. Over the years, I have also learned to speak Putonghua well enough to communicate. I do not find Putongua any more efficient, pleasing, or less vulgar.

Putonghua is one of the dialects of Chinese, just like Cantonese. It just happened to be selected by the latest rulers of China to be the national tongue.

I have lived in North America for 18 years. I saw no advantage for Putongua speakers in acculturating.

mainlander said...

how do asian languages sound to your ears?

answer from a linguist:
japanese sounds the most melodic, like a bird chattering; kyoto dialect is the best in my opinion(I GUESS ITS TO DO WITH KyOTO BEING CAPITAL FOR LONG TIME, JUST LIKE BJ -- mainlander), sounds very wise and sophisticated in an ancient kinda way, and osaka dialect the most hideous

korean sounds like a combination of chinese and japanese, just really breathy, and they end a lot of syllables with the "l" sound so it kinda sounds like they're swallowing their tongue a lot. north korean sounds less slurred together than south korean.

chinese, where to begin... so many dialects....
standard mandarin is... standard. very official sounding. probably only chinese language that doesn't sound cheap.

beijing mandarin is okay, sounds like they have hot tofu in their mouths with all the errrrr sounds, but beijingers talk and swear waaay to much in their spoiled sarcastic arrogant style

nanjing and shanghai dialects sounds better. jiangsu dialects in general sound soft but often really shrill and petty.

northeastern dialect (manchurian) sounds very country bumpkin-ish, always makes me think of peasants.

shandong dialect sounds heavy, like when scottish or irish people speak english; more of a brogue than a dialect.

tianjin dialect similar to beijing dialect, but with weird tones, like when italians speak english.

gansu dialect sounds like mongolian or turkish or something; too much phlegm. shaanxi dialect also lots of phlegm.

sichuan, hubei, yunnan dialects have that flamboyant southern twang, i can't decide if i like them or not (leaning towards not)

cantonese sounds really blunt and harsh, no matter who says it. expressive but hideous.

taiwanese mandarin can be soft, but most of the times it's soooo nasally and harsh and ugly... all the sounds are blurred together, like "sh" and "s" they pronounce the same... taiwanese minnan sounds similar, kinda like southeast asian languages.

tibetan sounds half chinese half indian, lots of "dr" sounds

mongolian sounds like growling. outer mongolian is a bit russian-ish.

vietnamese sounds like a cantonese person talking with his nose.
thai sounds like cantonese with rolling "rrr" sounds.

"I am typical American white male and I think Cantonese sounds very similar to Vietnamese...
Korean sounds pleasing, Japanese and Mandarin can be tolerable, but I can't stand to Cantonese and Vietnamese."

"As a native Cantonese speaker I do concede that Cantonese is one of the harsher sounding dialects out there.

A point I'd like to make about Vietnamese is that it seems to particularly grate on Cantonese ears mainly because it sounds like a drunk, whining Cantonese speaker. "

mainlander said...

Cantonese still doesn't have the phonetic rules that most languages have that tend to regulate the flow of words so that it won't sound unnatural to say one word after another.

Cantonese p, t, k stops occur only in syllable final position and are unreleased, there is an unavoidable addition of a glottal stop /?/ before any following vowel. This creates an overall choppy feeling to the language.

English make use of ellision between words, so that in many cases syllable- or word-final consonants undergo phonemic change with the first consonant of the following word, making these languages sound much smoother. For example, the natural pronunciation of 'would you' is more like 'woodzhu'.

Cantonese has many sounds made near the throat -- again a backward sign. the more -ve emotionally charged english words also tend to contain more back of throat sound, and are often refferred to as "gutter language" -- obviously less favourable for aesthetic appreciation.

mainlander said...

becoz of various historical events, cantonese were the first group of chinese who explored overseas. in a way, they have taken a representative role for chinese in the last couple hundred yrs ( to the point that some foreigners thought cantonese is china's national language or elites' language as opposed to the fact that cantonese is the least appreciated dialect in china). but in the last half century or so, there have been more and more non-cantonese chinese going overseas. half century is like a snap of time in the course of history but its already hard not to notice one interesting contrast between these 2 groups of immigrants: quite a lot of cantonese decendants are still running take-away eateries in china town while more and more non-cantonese chinese new immigrants to west have been taking top jobs in various walks of life. does that speak for which group is better acculturating?

mainlander said...

standardisation makes sense only in the context of a more established society where there is rule and order.

langauge standardization not only happens in china. it has happened throughout history across the world and will continue to happen as long as there a need to facilitate unification between different ways of expressing the same idea.

german and french also went thru standardization in its spoken form during the 19th century. apparently the standard spoken form all take on the northern dialects’ pronouciation in both germany and france.

languages come and go. the number of languages and dialects are decreasing.

mainlander said...

"Put aside politics, China and Hong Kong should have only one writing system. Focus should be on finding the best writing system for ease of communication. Forget about politics, forget about the history. It's a linguistic problem. Not a politics problem."

mainlander said...

汉字如果不进化,只会被扫进历史的垃圾筒。
保卫汉字不是返古,而是进化与改革。
繁体字可能好看,可能不好看,但繁体字使13亿人效率降低后,能灭国。
汉字应该进一步简化、模块化。
现代的知识爆炸,文字应该朝着易学易记易看(看着不费劲,保护视力)的方向发展。

很多人忽略一个历史事实,以为简体字是中国共产党的发明。其实,在新中国成立之前的1935年,当时蒋介石政府就认为,汉字简化是必然方向,责成当时教育部长王世杰进行文字改革。同年8月,国民政府以教育部名义颁布第一批《简体字表》(324字),但遭到国民党极右派的阻挠,不到半年即遭通令暂缓执行。1955年,虽然蒋介石已退守台湾,依然主张汉字必需简化才有前途。时任国民党中央党史编纂会主任的罗家伦,奉旨发表《简体字之提倡甚为必要》,同样又遭民粹派强烈反对,蒋从此也就不再提简体字计划。

1,借鉴日本的经验 流落在日本的汉字又有怎样的命运呢?日本至今仍是中国之外,唯一最多人使用汉字的国家。过去,日本人崇拜汉字,感激汉字带给他们文明与进步,但后来不仅怀疑汉字拖累了日本,还憎恨汉字像枷锁般让日本文字一直处于不伦不类的状态。后来,尽量少使用汉字(日语主要依赖平假名、片假名,可以废除汉字;不废除是因为象形文字易辨认,与拼音文字立体开发言语思维,且自动分隔假名)。

战后,限制使用汉字的势力更抬头,加上美国占领当局的示意,1946年12月公布新的《当用汉字表》,共收1945个汉字,规定所有教科书、报纸及官厅文书,不得使用当用汉字以外的汉字。日本的国策是,虽然不废除汉字,却通过减少使用、简化写法、整理读音,以达到限制使用汉字数量的目的。比如,一、同意义的字,废掉不常用的;二、尽量淘汰笔划多困难写的字;三、科学术语、农工商用语,尽量废掉汉字;四、可以用假名直接表示的词,尽量避免使用汉字;五、新输入的外国地名、人名、新术语,原则上用假名译音,不使用汉字。 战后日本,大量汉字被废弃,再经改头换面的简化,汉字在日本其实已经面目全非,但并不影响日本的文化成长、经济发展和社会进步,反而促进了日本的现代化,且与计算机时代合拍。

汉字跟世界所有文字一样,首先是文化的载体、沟通的工具,写慢、记慢、学慢就是落后,同一张纸上容纳繁体字更少,砍伐更多森林,耗费更多油墨。其次,电脑确是解决了传播的问题,但学习和使用,特别是中文的世界化还有不少问题需待克服,比如电脑上繁体字坨坨黑屎,使青少年视力急剧下降。第三,一些人坚持,繁体字才是“正字”,主要是出于政治考量、意识形态影响,“言必称正统、正体,坚决反对文字革新

mainlander said...

写慢、记慢、学慢就是落后

its human nature to be discriminatory against the backward as long as we aspire to improve and progress.

cantonese + traditional character = the most backward choice of chinese language. upholding a backward and widely disrespected communication tool is destined to invite doom for hk even sooner.

mainlander said...

there are always good reasons for the ruler's choice.
the reason that northern spoken form win is a reflection of northerners' collective wisdom(and therefore their culture) being the uperhand.

colder places faster evolution fairer skin taller aesthetically more appealing more efficient brain cells wirings. all to do with energy efficiency. 


e.g.

1/energy saved from making the dark pigments on the skin (to protect skin from sun) can be channelled to mental functions for one to become more sophisticated and more insightful. ppl intuitively attracted to fair skin. even babies(black and white) prefer looking at pictures of white.


2/less energy needed to build thin lips(tissue) and for its maintenance(bloodsupply) than thick lips. pronouciation by thin lips is less clumsy and more precise than thick lips and sounds more pleasant. the most obvious facial feature difference between a white and a black is the lips (other than skin colour).


3/being tall is more efficient in conserving body heat.



such efficiency is work of nature and is written into gene. matters more than cultural shaping.



we are attracted to aesthetic appeal intuitively. aesthetic appeal is the guide to more efficient survival wisdom.

moral judgement over discussion about racial differences makes truth look inconvenient and slows down the discovery of truth.



over the spectrum of attractiveness, an average looking northerner always win over an average southerner.

mainlander said...

"It is the Mainland’s economic system that allows low-quality, fakes and poisonous products to flood the market - which drive the buyers to seek safer, high quality products in Hong Kong. It is also the Mainland political system that allows officials to amass fortunes through corruption - which drove them to launder the ill-gotten wealth in the casinos in Macau, and the real estate markets in Hong Kong. "

all to do with ideology failure in china which leads to social order disruption and cultural disconnection. traditional values such as honour and trust are discounted, corrupted or even abandonned.

i never read Karl Marx's works but was introduced to his ideas by textbook. he predicted capitalism will fail and communism will then take over in the end. i think from capitalism to communism is like a process of societal evolution, you cannot just skip capitalism and fastforward to communism. capitalism is like the filter for communism to be functional. good idea hijacked by the inadequate power can make good idea look bad.

StephenC said...

I read The Capital and The Communist Manifesto. Marx's theory was a little too simplistic and deterministic. He did not fully understand the significance of the market, information and other concepts of modern economics. Most fatally, his theory did not account fully for the dark side of human nature - selfishness, the seduction of power, ... Communism degenerates into totalitarianism much too easily. That's the biggest problem.

mainlander said...

thank you very much for still replying to me despite of all my blatant rudenss. my sincere appology.

i guess being "simplistic" from the view of our time is totally understandable and reasonable. but that still does not necessarily discount his prediction in the direction of societal progression.

he could still be right if it is true that we have been evolving to be more empathetic for other ppl and more appreciative of honour and trust. i first came to such thought when bill gates and warren buffet set up their charity fund.

i m kinda fascinated by the fact that marx and darwin both belong to the same era and were even in the same country. they probably never met.

StephenC said...

Not to worry. You are welcome here. Even if we do not agree on all points. As long as we discuss rationally. :-)

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